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DoctorV 2025-10-02 08:01
@Flam Could've been ๐Ÿ˜”
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๐Ÿ˜ฎ 2
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Flam 2025-10-02 13:33
If only
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Flam
Smrpg > paper mario and paper mario is not a successor to smrpg. Dont @ me
BahamutVoid 2025-10-02 13:39
Of course not, Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga is the successor to SMRPG hahaha
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Fridge 2025-10-02 13:50
I want to @
๐Ÿ˜‚ 1
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SlashTangent 2025-10-02 21:32
Why does that look pokemon snap?
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AuburnRDM 2025-10-04 01:07
i'd play super mario rpg snap
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LillyJade 2025-10-04 04:48
So I didn't realize this discussion was going on and I don't entirely have a grasp on what's going on, but I was just told that Dolphin is considering parting ways with RetroAchievements if RetroAchievements supports Pokemon Clover.
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LillyJade
So I didn't realize this discussion was going on and I don't entirely have a grasp on what's going on, but I was just told that Dolphin is considering parting ways with RetroAchievements if RetroAchievements supports Pokemon Clover.
BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 04:50
Clover's page has been retired, it never had a live achievement set
04:50
You can point them towards this announcement https://retroachievements.org/forums/topic/32648
An Apology to Our Community
Dear RetroAchievements community, Today, we have made an announcement regarding a policy clarification on our User Code of Conduct. This was met with serious concerns, and we fully acknowledge that we have let the commun...
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LillyJade 2025-10-04 04:50
I'm trying to get a handle on what's going on, apparently I'm several hours late to this discussion
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BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 04:51
The important part is
Effective immediately, development on Pokémon Clover is stopped and it will not be released on RetroAchievements.
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Layton 2025-10-04 04:52
might want to say "development on Pokemon Clover achievements" so less-aware people dont think we were developing the hack itself ๐Ÿ˜…
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BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 04:53
There was a bluesky post floating that we developed retroarch (edited)
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Stenzek 2025-10-04 04:54
are they distributing full roms instead of patches or something?
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BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 04:58
No they just think RA = RA
04:58
It's common misconception in general, like the idea that we directly work on emulator support
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Stenzek 2025-10-04 05:00
nono, I mean the underlying issue with this pokemon clover thing
05:01
the reason I mention it is it's kinda a wider issue with romhacks in general, with my (very limited) knowledge of copyright law, a patch that modifies a rom could be argued to be a derived work
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BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 05:04
We had a patch in our repository like we do for other hacks. They have a patcher on their website that requires an unmodified rom of fire red
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Stenzek 2025-10-04 05:05
hm, so why is this one any different to any other romhack? quick googling suggests it's associated with 4chan, which would be kinda understandable
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BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 05:06
It marks itself as a parody of 4chan and pokemon in general but yes the game's content is the concern (edited)
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LillyJade 2025-10-04 05:07
The game's content is very concerning and it's been controversial within RA for quite awhile now
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Stenzek 2025-10-04 05:08
ah, I see. fair enough
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LillyJade 2025-10-04 05:08
I don't even understand what started all of this
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Stenzek 2025-10-04 05:08
but yeah, there is a potential legal concern for romhacks, but generally the chances of someone getting pissed off are slim to none
05:09
except if it's nintendo/pokemon/etc, then the risk is higher lol
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LillyJade 2025-10-04 05:09
Oh I think there may be a misunderstanding about the content. Clover is notorious for extreme racism.
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Stenzek 2025-10-04 05:10
oh, yeah, for sure, screw that shit. I was just looking at it from a general copyright perspective
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Layton 2025-10-04 05:12
a homebrew dev I've made a set for was reposting posts critical of RA over this, it was getting around for sure
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Stenzek 2025-10-04 05:12
I can kinda see both sides; you don't want to be restrictive of what games are available, but on the other side you don't want to support/enable toxicity
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LillyJade 2025-10-04 05:14
I just, I thought last time someone tried making a set for this it got nuked from orbit so I don't know what's going on
05:15
And Dolphin's internal conversations are extremely concerning, like I'm genuinely afraid this will cause the Wii rollout to get cancelled
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Stenzek
the reason I mention it is it's kinda a wider issue with romhacks in general, with my (very limited) knowledge of copyright law, a patch that modifies a rom could be argued to be a derived work
CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-04 05:15
if the worry is legality with copyright a lot of these pokemon romhacks are made with the decomp as a base
05:16
which uh, lol
05:16
that's 100% a derived work and is just tpc being nice not dmca'ing all the pokemon decomps
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LillyJade 2025-10-04 05:16
I guess the people who didn't want Wii achievements might win after all, how's DOS looking for a rollout?
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Souzooka 2025-10-04 05:17
noo don't tell me Raymond Bryce is getting dropped
05:17
sorry Steve
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LillyJade
I guess the people who didn't want Wii achievements might win after all, how's DOS looking for a rollout?
LordBBH 2025-10-04 05:19
probably not good since tele was heavily involved with that
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CasualPokePlayer
that's 100% a derived work and is just tpc being nice not dmca'ing all the pokemon decomps
Stenzek 2025-10-04 05:23
heh, indeed
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LillyJade
I guess the people who didn't want Wii achievements might win after all, how's DOS looking for a rollout?
Stenzek 2025-10-04 05:25
what's the issue? it's not fundamentally all that different to GC.. (edited)
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Souzooka 2025-10-04 05:25
the issue is the controversy today
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Stenzek 2025-10-04 05:27
bleh. folks need to chill the heck out and not overreact (something I've only recently learnt to not do myself)
๐Ÿ‘† 1
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Souzooka 2025-10-04 05:35
I just want to know if Raymond Bryce will get achievements
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LillyJade
I guess the people who didn't want Wii achievements might win after all, how's DOS looking for a rollout?
Brylefi 2025-10-04 06:40
Don't say that ssweat
06:41
I'm almost 200 cheevos deep in brawl cAAAAAmerAAAAAA
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SternXD 2025-10-04 07:24
Did I miss something?
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LillyJade 2025-10-04 13:29
Okay. I don't know if this is the right room for this - my intent is for this to be seen by RA administration and staff and this seems to be the best place I have access to for that purpose. To start with, I apologize for my reactions last night. I have had a long week and I found out about yesterday's events right on the verge of heading to bed so I was already very tired, and frankly that was probably one of the strongest panic attacks I've ever had in my entire life, especially since a communication channel I have with a handful of Dolphin's top devs saw a handful of angry posts around 5pm EST and then the person who posted them signed off because it was their nighttime. That being said, I want to make this clear: Dolphin did seriously discuss removing RetroAchievements support entirely as a result of the initial posts on Pokemon Clover. Adding this one game to the site would come at the cost of, at minimum, the only currently viable way to play one of if not the biggest console launch RA has ever had and a future console that looks to be just as big. Literal hundreds of games and no doubt hundreds of players were at stake over this. This is not funny. This is not a joke. I'm sure most of you realize this, but I wanted to make this clear for anyone who might still be on the fence about it. Dolphin is still discussing how safe it is to make announcements pertaining to RA in at least the near future. This might be a site for fake internet points and badges but we're important enough in the retro gaming community for our big events to wind up in mainstream video gaming publications. This was massively damaging to our goodwill, and regardless of the actual content, we need to be a lot more careful with things we know are so controversial. There's far too much at stake here for someone to make this kind of edgy joke.
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Nepiki 2025-10-04 13:36
Hi! I can probably address these concerns, as I have been nonstop trying to douse fires left and right. The apology already stated it, but we of RAdmin, well, we messed up big time with how we approached it. We fully owe up to that, and deeply regret it, and it has been a good learning lesson for the entire team. We have then also decided that Clover will not come to RA. The Dolphin devs can be assured of that. We are currently reflecting on the threads and game page wall comments, and seeing what additional action we can take against users that very clearly broke our CoC.
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LillyJade 2025-10-04 13:41
Oh, I do see the resulting moves and I'm glad they've been made, and were made before I even got on to see what was happening. I've also heard there have been some minor staffing changes already. I just also see a lot of posts from outside RA who seem to think RA is in the wrong for banning Clover from a set who are unaware or ignoring the actual effect this would have on the site, and I can tell there are people who disagree with this decision and seem to still be treating it as the kind of edgy 4chan joke that seems harmless until the consequences land.
13:43
Best wishes on the firefighting. I wish I could offer assistance but I don't think I'm good enough at people skills for that to be a good idea.
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Nepiki 2025-10-04 13:43
No worries, I got it PacThumbs
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Factor 2025-10-04 13:53
im surprised clover was gonna get a set. I would've thought that fan/unofficial works would have to comply with the CoC. i get the idea of preservation but at the same time I don't really think of achievement sets as a form of preservation and as for the patch link there is already a place like romhacking.net for rom hacks that dont meet the standards of communities in order to preserve them
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Stenzek 2025-10-04 13:54
as someone who's taken this stuff way too seriously in recent years, you have to put yourself first. if it's causing you to end up with panic attacks, you need to take a step back for your own sanity/health
13:56
not trying to dismiss your concerns, after seeing some of the crap in this mod, I 100% agree it shouldn't be given any attention, but just.. take care of yourself
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Stenzek
as someone who's taken this stuff way too seriously in recent years, you have to put yourself first. if it's causing you to end up with panic attacks, you need to take a step back for your own sanity/health
LillyJade 2025-10-04 14:04
There was a period last night where I was genuinely considering taking some major time off. I've softened now that I got a little sleep but I do believe I need to put some more time into other projects so it doesn't feel quite so much like one controversy could erase three years of my life. Yeah, I was a little concerned with how I reacted to all this.
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Factor
im surprised clover was gonna get a set. I would've thought that fan/unofficial works would have to comply with the CoC. i get the idea of preservation but at the same time I don't really think of achievement sets as a form of preservation and as for the patch link there is already a place like romhacking.net for rom hacks that dont meet the standards of communities in order to preserve them
LillyJade 2025-10-04 14:06
I still am not sure I follow what sequence of events started this whole controversy, but I do know this isn't the first time Clover has come up in the community, and it feels like the people who really want it to be a set seem to be doing it more for edgelord 4chan humor than for any actual interest in the game itself or in preservation.
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Factor 2025-10-04 14:07
if i read the comments/posts correctly its been a set in the works for a while now and it was about to release when the controversy got kicked up
14:08
RAdmin made a post about siding with preservation and allowing it which got more people on the controversy then they back tracked (edited)
14:12
as for the content of the game yeah ive seen it first hand as it is very much an infamous rom hack in the pokecommunity
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amine456 2025-10-04 14:13
I wonder if anything will happen to the pokemon periwinkle sets
14:14
Considering there is blobbos, a fakemon from clover, in it
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Factor 2025-10-04 14:22
im surprised that it has a set lol. it has similar content as clover (made by the same team) (edited)
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amine456 2025-10-04 14:24
It only has a few fakemons, the rest are official pokemon
14:24
I played the set a while ago, I don't remember the dialogues at all though
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Factor 2025-10-04 14:25
i was more so referring to the themes and dialogue. it is less of an extreme compared to clover
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amine456 2025-10-04 14:25
I would personally be annoyed to lose points if it gets removed but not the end of world
14:25
I am okay with clover getting removed because it never had a set in the first place
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Factor 2025-10-04 14:27
i mean if its on there its on there im not gonna complain
14:28
it is after all a users decision to engage with the content provided
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BahamutVoid
You can point them towards this announcement https://retroachievements.org/forums/topic/32648
CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-04 14:38
just to clarify
We posted this announcement in the forum post of Pokémon Clover
who's "We" here? did the RAAdmin account outright post this in clover's thread? was it one of the admin's individual accounts? or was it just a general user account seeing this then proceeding to post there? whatever forum post appears to be removed or edited out (edited)
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Layton 2025-10-04 14:39
RAAdmin account
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CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-04 14:40
ok that's a wtf
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suspect15 2025-10-04 14:58
With RA's growth over the last couple years, this fork in the road was coming one way or the other. My opinion is that it's in the project's best interests to just steer clear or any sort of divisive political or social topics altogether.
๐Ÿ’ฏ 2
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Gollawiz 2025-10-04 16:40
its just too infamous to be worth it. I haven't ever seen anyone else be mad at GTA, God of War, or Manhunt - most at least accept official releases as being fair game. I think if Romhacking is against it, we should have it on our radar as well. The site can obviously make its own decisions, but we should take the path that others have successfully taken as well
๐Ÿ’ฏ 1
16:42
Sorry for the fact that the site had to deal with the worst dumpster fire / snowball imaginable, mods deserve a spa day for that ๐Ÿ˜‚
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Souzooka 2025-10-04 16:48
It'd be one thing if we were living in a postracism world, which obviously we do not. Instead when talking about Clover a bunch of people saying "oh it's just edgy jokes like Family Guy why are you offended snowflake" pop up out of the woodwork and it just makes a lot of people in the community uncomfortable
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suspect15 2025-10-04 17:42
Yea, I saw lots of bad arguments on both sides from largely the same core group of loud mouths.
17:45
Plenty of good points in the mix too of course.
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drisc 2025-10-04 17:45
It appears someone wrote a blog post about RA as a result of the recent events and their experience in the Jr. Dev program: https://blog.retroheart.net/blog/retro-debacle
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suspect15 2025-10-04 17:47
Seems like someone RA is much better without
17:48
just clicked on their main site... yikes
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Nepiki 2025-10-04 17:48
They make a big deal that their claim got dropped when they purposefully left the community, what did they expect at that point HamtaroShrug
17:48
''Oh I'm gonna leave the community but you better still publish my set''?
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suspect15 2025-10-04 17:49
I dunno. It's tough to juggle everything...
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Nepiki
''Oh I'm gonna leave the community but you better still publish my set''?
drisc 2025-10-04 17:50
He actually made specific reference to that in the "awardments" post, that if the set is published then we are stealing their work (edited)
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Hexadigital 2025-10-04 17:51
Well, the good news is that we have rules explicitly forbidding that anyway
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suspect15 2025-10-04 17:51
Our rules wouldn't permit the unofficial achievements to be promoted
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drisc 2025-10-04 17:51
Exactly which shows they didn't read the docs
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Nepiki
They make a big deal that their claim got dropped when they purposefully left the community, what did they expect at that point HamtaroShrug
Souzooka 2025-10-04 17:51
from what I read it sounded like their set may have not been marked as in review
17:51
and the claim lapsed 4 weeks into the review backlog
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suspect15 2025-10-04 17:52
Sometimes things get lost in the shuffle with so many jr-devs. The first I recall hearing of this person was when they stormed off
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drisc
It appears someone wrote a blog post about RA as a result of the recent events and their experience in the Jr. Dev program: https://blog.retroheart.net/blog/retro-debacle
suspect15 2025-10-04 17:53
How did you even find this?
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LordAndrew 2025-10-04 17:53
The claim was marked as in review on August 30 and automatically renewed on September 20. It was automatically dropped after I set them to registered per their request.
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suspect15
How did you even find this?
drisc 2025-10-04 17:53
I was looking at the recent claims and saw Darky claim Blue Stinger. I like that game and was looking at the comments
17:53
They posted a link to the blog in there
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suspect15 2025-10-04 17:54
Ah okay. I wouldn't think this blog had much reach. That makes sense.
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drisc 2025-10-04 17:54
The curse of blogs these days, no reach Caameraa (edited)
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LordAndrew
The claim was marked as in review on August 30 and automatically renewed on September 20. It was automatically dropped after I set them to registered per their request.
drisc 2025-10-04 17:55
So it was because they left the program
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drisc
The curse of blogs these days, no reach Caameraa (edited)
Nepiki 2025-10-04 17:55
As someone who attempted a professional reviewer blog before I got to RA, can confirm
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Nepiki
As someone who attempted a professional reviewer blog before I got to RA, can confirm
drisc 2025-10-04 17:56
At this point my blog is just for me
17:56
(and only has 1 post)
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Hexadigital 2025-10-04 17:56
Blogs and IRC are the way to go prayo
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LordAndrew 2025-10-04 17:57
This was the message. https://discord.com/channels/310192285306454017/1403399483387023380/1423751672710172757 I guess it wasn't explicitly a request to remove the role, but how else could we proceed after such a statement?
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Nepiki 2025-10-04 17:57
They also requested account deletion so that would have dropped it too
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suspect15 2025-10-04 17:58
To be fair, we get 1 or 2 of these aggrieved jr-devs storming off for various reasons and making a public statement about it per year
17:58
with as many people as we have in the program (about 150 at any given time) there are bound to be some outliers
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drisc 2025-10-04 18:06
I feel like if that code of conduct post had been it's own thread, not attached to Clover then none of this would have happened. Or at least it would have been minimised due to not being associated with it as strongly, people would have still taken issue with it because people always do but it wouldn't have been so laser focused on one set. (edited)
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Nepiki 2025-10-04 18:07
We (speaking on behalf of RAdmin) agree on that, and deeply regret it
18:08
We will absolutely admit we fucked up, and this will continue haunting us, but we'll get out of it stronger as a team by learning from it ๐Ÿ’ช
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drisc 2025-10-04 18:17
No judgement from me, I see that the team is working to make things right. Thanks for the swift response to the situation.
18:18
It's pretty clear what the intention of the post was, it just had unfortunate positioning on the site.
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suspect15 2025-10-04 18:32
RA is a passion project run by volunteers. Mistakes will be made and that's okay. RAdmin is in a tough position where there is no easy choice - welcome to leadership. I think the initial response to the misstep was fine and now with some decision space and a better understanding of the community positions, it's better postured to make a decision on what's best for RA's future.
โค๏ธ 1
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Stenzek 2025-10-04 18:42
In my experience, make whatever statements you need to, then keep quiet. Engaging with the haters just keeps the fire burning
18:43
Don't give the drama loving youtubers etc any more ammunition, and the internet quickly moves on
๐Ÿ‘† 3
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Nepiki 2025-10-04 18:44
Yeah that's the idea, we've made right what we can and take our losses that we've had, and move on stronger than before
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Stenzek 2025-10-04 18:46
There's always the.. disillusioned that will grasp onto any event and use that for their own personal vendetta, like above lol.. inevitable with large communities
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drisc
He actually made specific reference to that in the "awardments" post, that if the set is published then we are stealing their work (edited)
Darky 2025-10-04 18:47
I think I posted about it often enough now but I don't plan to just take their achievements and upload them as mine
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Stenzek 2025-10-04 18:47
But yeah, sounds like a good plan ๐Ÿ™‚
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Darky
I think I posted about it often enough now but I don't plan to just take their achievements and upload them as mine
drisc 2025-10-04 18:48
Yeah I know you wouldn't do that, it was just something I saw on one of their posts that I wanted to point out (edited)
18:49
Given how much they have written over the past day about RA I wanted to highlight it incase anyone started using it as a reason to harass or make drama about it
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Hexadigital
Blogs and IRC are the way to go prayo
Trixarian 2025-10-04 19:29
That's blast from the past right there
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Hexadigital 2025-10-04 19:50
I still use IRC every day, even have a bridge between my Discord server/guild and an IRC channel for non-Discord users to chat \o/
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cdpowe 2025-10-04 20:46
I thought IRC was dead lol
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LordBBH 2025-10-04 20:47
There are people using this incident as an excuse to virtue signal and say that the apology wasn't enough. I'm half expecting people to come into an RA stream of mine and say I'm complicit with allowing Nazi romhacks (even though I've never played a Pokemon game on the site and obviously wouldn't touch it) or are just going to unfollow me because I'm using a site that hasn't done enough in their eyes to say this shit is bad.
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Searo 2025-10-04 20:48
I hope it stays mainly to just twitter/bluesky and people don't start harassing streamers next ssweat
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drisc 2025-10-04 20:48
A lot of people I've seen on BSKy are using it as an excuse to call the site bad
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Hexadigital 2025-10-04 20:48
I lost a couple followers on Twitch, but chat has been fine
prayo 1
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drisc 2025-10-04 20:48
Or call the concept of achievements bad
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Searo 2025-10-04 20:48
Was going to ask Hex if you've seen any since you are streaming atm lel
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drisc 2025-10-04 20:49
I did see that Skybilz is going to be steering clear of RA in a post on bsky
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Hexadigital 2025-10-04 20:50
Only thing I had in chat was someone last night asking me if I saw what happened
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drisc
Or call the concept of achievements bad
AuburnRDM 2025-10-04 20:50
genuinely, many people just don't understand cheevos and think they're dumb
20:51
"why do you need a trophy to tell you that you did something?" etc
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drisc 2025-10-04 20:52
It frustrating to see, some have a hatred of them due to notification fatuige which I can understand but at the same time RA is an opt-in service. You have to go out of your way to enable it and create an account. If you don't like the feature then just leave it be geez
20:53
I know a few people that just have accounts for tracking purposes, they never even visit the site they just use it as a checklist and occasionally find things they didn't know about the game in the achievement list and go and do them
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Hexadigital 2025-10-04 20:55
There's a lot of misinformation going around too, like I've seen people complaining today about how "RetroAchievements still has an achievement set for Clover"
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suspect15 2025-10-04 20:55
There is stuff in unofficial that people can see. Probably best to purge it
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CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-04 20:57
do emulators not hide unofficial by default
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drisc 2025-10-04 20:57
They don't like having it have a page on the site at all. I get the point of the graveyard but in this case it might be better to purge the page entirely. The thread was already split off to another page so it's not like they can accuse us of removing the forum posts (though they already are accusing us of burying it by moving it in the first place)
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suspect15 2025-10-04 20:57
they do, but they are easy to see
20:58
yea and graveyard was the wrong hub to put it in. should have gone to ineligible for set
20:58
i'm going to delete the unofficial achievements... they are just risk
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drisc 2025-10-04 20:59
Removing all the assets would probably help as well. If there is just the game name on the page then it doesn't look like it has any work done on it
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suspect15
yea and graveyard was the wrong hub to put it in. should have gone to ineligible for set
Excessiveiser 2025-10-04 20:59
Apolgies for that, that might've been my fault. Saw the Z and assumed it belonged to the hub.
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suspect15 2025-10-04 21:00
i'll move it, no biggie
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Excessiveiser 2025-10-04 21:00
Actually pardon me, I was thinking about 177. I only just removed some metadata from Clover.
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LordBBH 2025-10-04 21:02
https://bsky.app/profile/punchystream.bsky.social/post/3m2en47rbjc2n
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Punchy (@punchystream.bsky.social)
ok cool now ban basically everyone still congregating in the comments section on the game page (which is still up) to still act like bigots! seriously! you have cultivated a bad userbase and they are going to relentlessly embarrass you like this unless you shut them out! Get rid of them!
-# RetroAchievements (@retroachievements.org) Dear RetroAchievements community, With our recent policy clarification, we made some glaring mistakes on how it was presented to the community, as well as the message we brought across. We would like to apologize, and address concerns that were brought up. retroachievements.org/forums/topic...
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Footer icon Bluesky โ€ข 2025-10-04 13:57
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drisc
Removing all the assets would probably help as well. If there is just the game name on the page then it doesn't look like it has any work done on it
BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 21:03
That's how the page has been for almost 24 hours
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BahamutVoid
That's how the page has been for almost 24 hours
drisc 2025-10-04 21:03
Yeah I just had a look now, I hadn't been to it since tomo still had it claimed
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BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 21:04
The RP history is still there but that requires a server scrub
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drisc 2025-10-04 21:04
I wish we had a way to lock comments as well
21:04
People are still going in there
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Souzooka 2025-10-04 21:04
You can just recycle the page
21:04
Wipe the comments
21:04
Change it to Wipeout Wii
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suspect15 2025-10-04 21:05
Yea, I think we need a generic page that all banned hashes are linked to that is just "Ineligible for set"
21:05
No details, nothing - just all the hashes that won't get games pointing to it an otherwise empty page
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LordBBH 2025-10-04 21:05
the best part is that even if the game is purged entirely, people will just move the goalposts to "why did it take them so long to delete it!" and just keep complaining
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Excessiveiser 2025-10-04 21:05
Might have to also hide the hash names so people don't seek them out.
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Layton 2025-10-04 21:06
If it gets an update then there won't be a Z'd page for it, more likely someone makes it without knowing
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suspect15 2025-10-04 21:06
We can jump on that quickly
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Layton
If it gets an update then there won't be a Z'd page for it, more likely someone makes it without knowing
drisc 2025-10-04 21:07
We could fix that by a check to the management app that informs the user that the game is banned if they try to name the page something on a list
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drisc
I did see that Skybilz is going to be steering clear of RA in a post on bsky
Darky 2025-10-04 21:08
I do wonder if anyone has informed auth or skybilz about the misinformation tie was spreading, especially the supposed mute he got
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Darky
I do wonder if anyone has informed auth or skybilz about the misinformation tie was spreading, especially the supposed mute he got
drisc 2025-10-04 21:09
I'm sure someone has been in touch, he was in the thread at one point
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LordBBH 2025-10-04 21:09
it's frustrating that Tie did all those posts about how bad the site is now and dropped it entirely before the apology post was made
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LordBBH
the best part is that even if the game is purged entirely, people will just move the goalposts to "why did it take them so long to delete it!" and just keep complaining
BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 21:10
It's the moderation problem. People can't see how much work has already been done muting/banning users because they're not visible, and we get messages that we haven't done anything because at the moment comments are moving too fast to keep up. We vote on each individual case, action early if there's a majority or it's more severe, and in the meantime we have users who because they believe they're in the right to willingly break the code of conduct themselves. Which results in more mutes/bans that need votes (edited)
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drisc
People are still going in there
Searo 2025-10-04 21:10
It makes for a nice easy source to check for people to ban/mute. It will get cleaned up soon most likley but we are actively looking into many users there and elsewhere
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Darky
I do wonder if anyone has informed auth or skybilz about the misinformation tie was spreading, especially the supposed mute he got
suspect15 2025-10-04 21:10
who got muted?
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LordBBH
it's frustrating that Tie did all those posts about how bad the site is now and dropped it entirely before the apology post was made
drisc 2025-10-04 21:10
That also seems to be a trend with others, they posted the original thread and didn't follow up with the response at all
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LordBBH 2025-10-04 21:10
I've seen at least a few instances of it
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BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 21:11
There's also misinformation floating around they we develop Retroarch and participated in the abusing of Near
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LordBBH 2025-10-04 21:11
and now others are complaining that the apology was insincere and that more bans need to be given out to the people who keep arguing about this
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Searo
It makes for a nice easy source to check for people to ban/mute. It will get cleaned up soon most likley but we are actively looking into many users there and elsewhere
drisc 2025-10-04 21:11
Nice, that is probably something that people would appreciate knowing about while waiting for the further discussions to take place but I can see how that would stop people from showing themselves in a way that makes it easy in that comment thread
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LordBBH 2025-10-04 21:11
everyone is too online. It's exhausting
๐Ÿ’ฏ 2
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Searo 2025-10-04 21:13
Yeah probably, we're just swamped trying to clean up the overall mess and review users to take action on as-is though ssweat
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suspect15
who got muted?
Darky 2025-10-04 21:13
Tie, a friend of authorblues and skybilz, who has been the most vocal about all of this on bluesky was spreading the info that he got muted https://bsky.app/profile/tietuesday.bsky.social/post/3m2ct4e6qns22
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TieTuesday (@tietuesday.bsky.social)
-# โ†ฉ TieTuesday (@tietuesday.bsky.social) ok last one i got muted for stuff like this and tbh hold that i hope you felt bad when you muted it
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Footer icon Bluesky โ€ข 2025-10-03 20:40
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BahamutVoid
There's also misinformation floating around they we develop Retroarch and participated in the abusing of Near
CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-04 21:15
RA = RA
21:15
clearly
21:15
math doesn't lie
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drisc 2025-10-04 21:15
People see the name Retro and assume it's all connected
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BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 21:16
People are angry and are allowed to express it. But because of that they're also not interested in being corrected because that would be admitting some of their anger is misplaced
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suspect15 2025-10-04 21:17
https://retroachievements.org/game/35104 This is where the game is linked to now (edited)
~Z~ Ineligible For Set (Game Boy Advance)
No achievements have been created yet for ~Z~ Ineligible For Set. Join RetroAchievements to request achievements for ~Z~ Ineligible For Set and earn achievements on many other classic games.
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drisc 2025-10-04 21:17
I've been keeping an eye on the term retroachievements on bluesky this afternoon and it's a lot phew
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CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-04 21:17
for your sanity i suggest not
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drisc 2025-10-04 21:17
Too late haha (edited)
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suspect15
https://retroachievements.org/game/35104 This is where the game is linked to now (edited)
Darky 2025-10-04 21:19
so Clover page got nuked?
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drisc 2025-10-04 21:19
Also is there any way to blank the request count on a game? It still has 386 which is putting it near the top of the requests list
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suspect15 2025-10-04 21:19
yea, i just sanitized it better since the policy is clear
21:19
someone with root will need to delete the page i'm guessing. i can't do more than just tidy it up (edited)
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drisc
Also is there any way to blank the request count on a game? It still has 386 which is putting it near the top of the requests list
BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 21:19
That also requires a server scrub
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drisc 2025-10-04 21:20
Ah ok
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Souzooka 2025-10-04 21:20
Could we change it to a Wii shovelware game by chance
21:20
Get Anubis II 400 requests
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suspect15
Yea, I think we need a generic page that all banned hashes are linked to that is just "Ineligible for set"
BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 21:21
While I appreciate the intent, one of the things being demanded is that we remove the patch from the repository because that's also seen as supporting it (edited)
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suspect15 2025-10-04 21:22
i can't touch the patch - i just linked the hash to an ineligible for set so if someone loads the game it says there are no achievements (edited)
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BahamutVoid
While I appreciate the intent, one of the things being demanded is that we remove the patch from the repository because that's also seen as supporting it (edited)
Darky 2025-10-04 21:22
tbf, if the game is no longer on site it no longer needs a patch in our repo sooooooo we could probably remove it
๐Ÿ‘† 1
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drisc 2025-10-04 21:22
It would be similar to the cheat rom game right?
21:22
All those hashes lead to that
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suspect15 2025-10-04 21:22
yea that's the idea
21:23
although i can't quite do it because i'm restricted to only linking to pages that are for a specific console
21:23
i could put multiple GBA hashes into a GBA ineligible for set page, but not from other consoles
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drisc 2025-10-04 21:23
It's probably something a hash manager can do
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suspect15 2025-10-04 21:23
yea, i think so
21:23
this is the best i can do for now
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Darky
tbf, if the game is no longer on site it no longer needs a patch in our repo sooooooo we could probably remove it
BahamutVoid 2025-10-04 21:23
It's already gone
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BahamutVoid
It's already gone
Darky 2025-10-04 21:24
oh I see, I thought it was still demanded/still present in our repo which seemed like an easy thing to just fix, my bad
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suspect15
https://retroachievements.org/game/35104 This is where the game is linked to now (edited)
Excessiveiser 2025-10-04 21:28
Would we need a PC-8000/8800 variant if we plan on sticking 177 in one of these?
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Excessiveiser
Would we need a PC-8000/8800 variant if we plan on sticking 177 in one of these?
suspect15 2025-10-04 21:28
Unless there is some way a hash manager can make a set console agnostic, I think so (edited)
21:29
they may just have to manually move hashes around in the db, i'm not sure
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drisc 2025-10-04 22:43
The requests are filling up again and the comment thread continues to get longer. I wonder if it would be better nuke the page entirely at this point.
22:43
I've never seen a set page with 327 comments before
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Searo 2025-10-04 22:46
Options are being discussed about that currently prayo
Prayo 1
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SternXD 2025-10-05 00:30
5 minute slow mode in the main server is crazy
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CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-05 01:09
as another clarification, did the clover set have an actual developer claim before it was yoinked out?
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 01:09
Yes
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:26
Might be an idea to pin the apology post in news so that it doesnโ€™t get bumped out by events posts for a few days
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:27
I think it's probably okay to let it drop off
03:27
how long should it be front and center?
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:28
Probably at least two days
03:28
Means that people who stormed off have a chance to cool down and come back
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:28
it's still in slot 2 on desktop for me
03:29
it's kind of wild that some people are going to leave RA because they thought Clover was going to get a set and an entirely separate group are going to leave now because it won't get a set.
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Cartesia 2025-10-05 03:30
In the end, it is impossible to have everyone happy, unfortunately
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:30
There will always be two camps
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:30
yea for sure
03:31
i've never seen such a reaction to something before. this was quite a spectacle
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:31
By removing it we will probably keep the better camp though
03:31
In the long run
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CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-05 03:31
if you're leaving because "the channer pokemon hack wont get a set" you're probably someone who'd get banned eventually (edited)
๐Ÿ‘† 2
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:32
yea, lots of inciters revealed themselves too
03:38
i felt like there were 4 distinct groups:
  • Anti-censorship people who thought it would be wrong to blacklist sets, clover included
  • People that didn't want to be part of a platform that endorsed things like clover by making sets for them I think these two groups were talking passed each other the entire time, but the positions can be understood. The last 2 groups were basically just inciters with opposing sides, both of which we'd be better without
 (edited)
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:39
I still think the post should be pinned for a bit, it shows that the site is owning the situation and not letting it slip away. Itโ€™s more an optics thing I guess is what I mean
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:39
yea, that makes sense to me
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:40
At the same time I see the argument for letting it fall of naturally
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:40
2 days is probably the right time though - it's worth people seeing, but i think we should move on probably by the end of the weekend
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:41
I'd be very surprised if the majority of users cared either way - it's usually a very vocal minority (edited)
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:41
i think you are exactly correct. my feed showed a typical number of players and unlocks for a saturday for my sets
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:41
Thatโ€™s usually how it goes on all sides
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:41
just have to "weather the storm"
๐Ÿ‘ 2
03:42
obviously I have no authority here and am not trying to push an agenda, but imo removing the set was 100% the right call
03:42
it's kinda like the nazi bar thing
03:42
let one in, and then you get others
03:43
for those saying "removal isn't good enough" etc, whatever you do it'll never be "enough", so it's not worth even trying
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:43
agreed
03:44
i was pretty surprised that there are people on bluesky who are advocating things like the site getting shutdown or "purged" - pretty whacko stuff considering (edited)
03:45
hundreds of good people have spent countless hours of their time trying to make enjoyable content for retro game fans and that should all be thrown away because of this... very strange
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:45
obviously with different circumstances, but such people have tried to cancel me for enforcing rights on things I've created, nobody takes them seriously apart from their echo chambers
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:45
There were quite a few streamers that pulled support from what I saw, either by not doing sets on stream or saying that they would tell others to stop supporting on stream
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drisc
There were quite a few streamers that pulled support from what I saw, either by not doing sets on stream or saying that they would tell others to stop supporting on stream
suspect15 2025-10-05 03:46
to be fair, i'm glad we now know who these people are
03:46
not people we need to invest in
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:46
sure, but what's their reach? a few hundred people tops? maybe they'll switch off RA in protest, but eventually they'll come back if it's something they enjoy
๐Ÿ‘† 1
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:47
Still feels icky to have people out there touting that you are a horrible person for using a website
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Layton 2025-10-05 03:47
relevant - what do they expect us to do, shut down all events? Maybe it hasn't been communicated to users as much but the team is clearly making changes and addressing the issue
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:47
that's the same person as was mentioned yesterday? also, "replies disabled", kinda says it all lol
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:47
I didnโ€™t even see that, another reason to pin it for a bit then
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:48
yea, i think they are an unwell person
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:48
some people just love drama/conflict and latch onto any sort of controversy, keeping it going as long as they can
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:48
i feel sorry for those types of people. they must not have much value in their lives if this is what motivates them
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:49
obviously don't know anything about their circumstances, but if you spend all your time online it's easy to get detached from reality and forget that the world has much bigger problems than volunteers giving up their time
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:49
yea, that seems very much the case.
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:50
I don't have any concrete stats, but I'd like to think I have a decent number of RA users through duckstation, and nobody's mentioned the pokemon thing anywhere I have control
03:51
obviously that's a different subset of the community, but point I'm trying to make is that outside of the echo chambers, nobody seems to care
03:51
definitely haven't heard "you should remove RA support because they're bigots" or anything like this ๐Ÿ˜‚
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:51
most people are reasonable i think and the situation, while obviously not masterfully handled, was far from deserving of the outrage that was generated i think
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:52
Clover was just a useful lightning rod
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suspect15 2025-10-05 03:52
the net result is that clover is no longer welcome and 177 is gone - yet somehow it was a terrible thing that RA did
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LordBBH 2025-10-05 03:53
it's terrible because it got as far as it did and therefore it means RA is complicit with everything and essentially a Nazi bar and the site is evil and everybody should delete their accounts right now!
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Stenzek
sure, but what's their reach? a few hundred people tops? maybe they'll switch off RA in protest, but eventually they'll come back if it's something they enjoy
CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-05 03:53
switch off RA then what. they realize there's no achievements ever for those retro games outside of RA? lmao (edited)
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Hexadigital 2025-10-05 03:53
Outside of RA, RA offshoot communities, BlueSky, and drama communities - things have been very quiet. I'm in a lot of retro/emulation gaming communities and when I checked earlier today, not a single word about all of this had appeared in those.
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:53
big corpos screw up comms and they engage/pay people to handle it, expecting a volunteer community to perfectly handle a controversy is completely unrealistic
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CasualPokePlayer
switch off RA then what. they realize there's no achievements ever for those retro games outside of RA? lmao (edited)
Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:54
I'll make my own RA, with blackjack and hookers!
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CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-05 03:55
I can't believe RA banned Sexy Poker
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CasualPokePlayer
switch off RA then what. they realize there's no achievements ever for those retro games outside of RA? lmao (edited)
drisc 2025-10-05 03:55
Some people were saying that RA should be forked, so like you gonna dig all those games yourself buddy? The platform is open source but the data is all community provided, itโ€™s not part of the GitHub package youโ€™d get.
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:56
exactly. and they might fork it, but like most forks it'll just die, nobody else cares and wants to put in the time/effort, and those that keep the drama going are.. well.. too busy making drama to actually do any work
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:56
I guess you could scrape the code notes and logic but then what? Youโ€™d have to maintain that and get emulators on board
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:56
(exact same thing happened with duckstation)
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wes 2025-10-05 03:56
Yea, the back-end code isn't what keeps the site going. It's a vast body of code notes, logic maintained over 1000s of hours by hundreds of people over nearly a decade, quality control, mature emulator integrations, etc etc etc.
๐Ÿ‘† 1
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drisc 2025-10-05 03:57
Welcome back Wes sorry everythingโ€™s on fire haha
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wes 2025-10-05 03:57
The website itself could cease to exist and as long as the back-end remained, a huge chunk of users would not be affected for quite some time. Most users enable us as a background feature in their emulator.
03:57
Still traveling ๐Ÿ˜… But doing support here and there.
๐Ÿ 2
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CasualPokePlayer
I can't believe RA banned Sexy Poker
Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:57
omg really ๐Ÿคฃ I remember dealing with that silly game in dolphin years ago
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CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-05 03:58
i mean they didnt, im making a joke how you said "RA with blackjack and hookers"
03:58
since that game is "blackjack and hookers" literally (edited)
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 03:58
yeah, figured it was tongue-in-cheek, but still nothing of value lost ๐Ÿ˜„
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Stenzek
obviously I have no authority here and am not trying to push an agenda, but imo removing the set was 100% the right call
Souzooka 2025-10-05 05:34
Yeah, I think it should be removed. The racism/transphobia etc. are concerning, but what is more concerning is some of the people attracted when Clover gets a set. These rather abrasive personalities can make others uncomfortable and leave, especially because people are sick of being told this sort of content is just a joke when these sorts of issues affect many in our community personally. This is why I think Clover should be forbidden, while something like America's 10 Most Wanted (PS2) is rather low risk despite the content being distasteful.
๐Ÿ’ฏ 1
05:40
Personally I think media with this sort of content is interesting in a sort of academic sense, but having a bunch of people go "actually this is based everyone who doesn't find it funny is a snowflake" is a fantastic way to drive others away
๐Ÿ’ฏ 1
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Layton
relevant - what do they expect us to do, shut down all events? Maybe it hasn't been communicated to users as much but the team is clearly making changes and addressing the issue
Darky 2025-10-05 07:04
It might be worth noting that another user, Xkeeper, has been posting a blog about this https://bsky.app/profile/xkeeper.net/post/3m2f43bs4rs2s additionally they also complained about our moderators not doing enough (apparently their face has been doxxed in our discord but from what was I could gather it seems to be gone and the person was banned)
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X ฮ˜ฮ” (@xkeeper.net)
for those just now joining us in the retroachievements debacle i posted a blog that more or less goes over this stupid bullshit blog.xkeeper.net/thoughts/ran... i said last night that a lack of strong stance + enforcement would mean smouldering. well, one night and two threads later, here we are
-# X ฮ˜ฮ” (@xkeeper.net) literally laughing out loud
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Footer icon Bluesky โ€ข 2025-10-04 18:25
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 07:11
wtf are they yapping on about ๐Ÿ˜‚
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Souzooka 2025-10-05 07:11
I think it would be nice to have that more definitive admin announcement
07:11
which is supposedly coming
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 07:12
sure, but doing so will just re-energise the debate/drama
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Souzooka 2025-10-05 07:13
it'd be nice to assert (I mean this is already covered by the coc) that hateful speech/promotion of hateful speech by community members won't be tolerated
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Stenzek
sure, but doing so will just re-energise the debate/drama
Souzooka 2025-10-05 07:13
personally I'm still rather tense over the situation, esp. the initial response, which I thought was rather disappointing
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 07:14
eh. I just know that with these sorts of folks, it doesn't matter what you do, they always find something to carry on with, it never ends
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Darky 2025-10-05 07:14
What I'm gonna say now is my personal opinion and since I'm not a mod or adming I have no saying in this I do think tho that they make a great point in their blog about the lines we have to choose for our games, we have already shown that we draw lines and right now it would be best if we make these lines clear and side with our player side instead of our games At least for hacks like Pokemon Clover or Pokemon Noon (a Hack that tries to out-Clover Pokemon Clover) it is best if we have stricter rules to not let thid happen again ukder any circumstances If we don't take away their fuel thr flame will just keep on burning and never vanish, siding with our users will probably help us in the long run (edited)
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Souzooka 2025-10-05 07:15
Personally for me it would be nice to have a more definitive and substantial statement to make it clear the administrative stance
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 07:15
that's not covered by the code of conduct?
07:17
Pokemon Noon (a Hack that tries to out-Clover Pokemon Clover)
oh gosh ๐Ÿ˜
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Souzooka 2025-10-05 07:17
again like I said the initial response was rather disappointing to me so it'd just be nice, and I'm sure nice to others, to have a more definitive statement on the issue
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Stenzek
that's not covered by the code of conduct?
Darky 2025-10-05 07:18
Our user coc is covering stuff like bigotry, defamation, harassment, etc. but these rules don't apply to any of our games
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Souzooka 2025-10-05 07:18
like the direction changed, right, but ultimately raadmin posted a paragraph about it with a lot of stuff still up in the air
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Darky
Our user coc is covering stuff like bigotry, defamation, harassment, etc. but these rules don't apply to any of our games
Stenzek 2025-10-05 07:19
hm, I see. logically you'd think the same would apply for games, but I can totally see some types seeing that as a vulnerability and taking advantage
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Stenzek
Pokemon Noon (a Hack that tries to out-Clover Pokemon Clover)
oh gosh ๐Ÿ˜
Darky 2025-10-05 07:19
yeah, I saw someone mentioning it so I took a look overssweat
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Hexadigital 2025-10-05 07:20
It's all still under discussion on our end - what we don't want to do is rush out a policy change and then end up in the exact same situation again when it's far too broad or doesn't cover enough
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Stenzek
hm, I see. logically you'd think the same would apply for games, but I can totally see some types seeing that as a vulnerability and taking advantage
Factor 2025-10-05 07:21
the problem with applying the user coc is that there are some official games that would otherwise break the rules (edited)
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Souzooka 2025-10-05 07:21
I understand, it's just you know, uneasy following RA saying "yeah having a set for the racism hack" on the thread for the racism hack and not having much concrete afterwards
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Factor 2025-10-05 07:32
the problem that you run into with a game code of conduct is mainly a moderation issue of needing to find out the content with a game and whether or not the content is suitable. for official games its pretty cut and dry as you can find information about them and they have ratings but for fan works, homebrews, rom hacks, etc. its not so cut and dry as someone would need to have knowledge or have played the game to figure out if its suitable
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LordBBH 2025-10-05 07:33
the most fucked up part of the initial thread was people being reprimanded for posting screenshots of Pokemon Clover that "break the site's TOS"
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SternXD 2025-10-05 07:34
I feel like it should be pretty straight forward to have a zero tolerance policy on stuff like this in the future unless there's something I'm missing here.
07:35
I've only seen bits and pieces about it
07:35
because I've been too focused on college work lol
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Darky
It might be worth noting that another user, Xkeeper, has been posting a blog about this https://bsky.app/profile/xkeeper.net/post/3m2f43bs4rs2s additionally they also complained about our moderators not doing enough (apparently their face has been doxxed in our discord but from what was I could gather it seems to be gone and the person was banned)
LordBBH 2025-10-05 07:36
I don't want to say too much because I've known xkeeper for a while, but... they definitely have a track record of obsessing and complaining online about other sites
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Factor 2025-10-05 07:36
i think for a game as blatant as this its pretty cut and dry but the question that people are asking and are worried about is where the line is drawn and if something like this will slip through due to the ambiguity (edited)
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SternXD 2025-10-05 07:36
I have honestly zero clue what Clover is. This is the first time I've heard of it
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Factor 2025-10-05 07:37
its a pokemon hack that pretty much is filled with 4chan memes and jokes and ties up all corners of the platform into one place
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SternXD 2025-10-05 07:37
oh god
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Factor 2025-10-05 07:38
it is meant to be a shock hack
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SternXD 2025-10-05 07:38
can't even imagine how insufferable that hack is to even play
07:38
let alone go for cheevos on
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SternXD
I feel like it should be pretty straight forward to have a zero tolerance policy on stuff like this in the future unless there's something I'm missing here.
Darky 2025-10-05 07:38
yes, I think this would be the best option, I think the greater problem is that we should now distinguish between commercial and non-commercial games since if we would actually apply our user coc to the games it would mean that games like GTA, Conker, Manhunt, etc. would be kicked too, and I don't think anyone really has a problem with these ones (unless I'm missing something)
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Factor 2025-10-05 07:38
all depends on your tolerance i guess lol
07:40
yeah thats what ive been trying to get at is that is hard to make a game coc as official games would potentially run into issues and unofficial works its hard to find out everything about them
07:40
its really hard to draw a line in the sand
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SternXD 2025-10-05 07:40
Then could just make it be all unofficial games/hacks are held to a higher standard rule wise maybe? (edited)
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LordBBH
I don't want to say too much because I've known xkeeper for a while, but... they definitely have a track record of obsessing and complaining online about other sites
Darky 2025-10-05 07:41
I've only know them to be co-founder of TCRF, never had any real interactions with them. They seem to have their heart at the right place but the way they try to achieve things seems...convoluted? idk if that's the right word (edited)
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Factor 2025-10-05 07:41
how they do a lot of things is convoluted lol
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Hexadigital 2025-10-05 07:42
It's definitely tricky, especially given that the two games banned were official and unofficial respectively
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SternXD
Then could just make it be all unofficial games/hacks are held to a higher standard rule wise maybe? (edited)
Darky 2025-10-05 07:42
I do think this would be the best for our community but I have no saying in this all
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SternXD
Then could just make it be all unofficial games/hacks are held to a higher standard rule wise maybe? (edited)
Factor 2025-10-05 07:42
yeah something like this could work but then there is a moderation issue of needing to curate games and finding if they are suitable which requires man hours
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Factor
yeah something like this could work but then there is a moderation issue of needing to curate games and finding if they are suitable which requires man hours
SternXD 2025-10-05 07:42
which requires man hours
any solution will regardless tbh
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Factor 2025-10-05 07:42
true
07:44
this is an issue of there not really being a correct solution to the ambiguity of what is and isnt allowed
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Hexadigital
It's definitely tricky, especially given that the two games banned were official and unofficial respectively
Darky 2025-10-05 07:45
of course, we shouldn't allow all commercial games (I believe 177 for example was an official release) so we should have some kind of clause in our coc which basically says that if it doesn't line up with our values of protecting the community, we will remain our rights to remove a set
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LordBBH 2025-10-05 07:47
there's already 3 officially banned games https://docs.retroachievements.org/guidelines/content/unwelcome-concepts.html#banned-titles
RetroAchievements Docs
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Souzooka 2025-10-05 07:47
Any game which would be banned should be considered by moderation, but I think games which are extremely hateful/promote sexual assault/depict underage nudity in a sexualized manner is a good baseline
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SternXD 2025-10-05 07:47
Only so much you can do honestly and you can't appease everyone so Shrug
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LordBBH
there's already 3 officially banned games https://docs.retroachievements.org/guidelines/content/unwelcome-concepts.html#banned-titles
CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-05 07:48
yeah i imagine this is more with legality (1 of those is just illegal even in the USA, the other 2 would be illegal in various countries like the UK, France, etc)
07:48
and of course these arent all the games that even have this kind of issue
07:49
i assume those are just ones somehow you got users submitting requests for (which would be a wtf already but w/e) (edited)
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drisc
Might be an idea to pin the apology post in news so that it doesnโ€™t get bumped out by events posts for a few days
Nepiki 2025-10-05 10:38
Personally I want the apology off the front page by Monday so that we can move on, this has been going on long enough, our moderators (me included) are getting exhausted, it's time we move on slowly
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Darky
It might be worth noting that another user, Xkeeper, has been posting a blog about this https://bsky.app/profile/xkeeper.net/post/3m2f43bs4rs2s additionally they also complained about our moderators not doing enough (apparently their face has been doxxed in our discord but from what was I could gather it seems to be gone and the person was banned)
Nepiki 2025-10-05 10:40
Bsky users have been complaining a lot that we are "not doing moderation", but speaking for myself, I have been glued to my chair for two days now and went to bed at 3 AM twice in a row. What we do is not visible, especially not mutes, and we have a shitton to go through but apparently we do nothing (edited)
10:40
Quite frankly I'm not willing to throw any of these content creators who keep pushing for us to take action a bone, they do not decide how we moderate.
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 10:41
like I said earlier, no matter what you do it'll never be enough for those people, they'll keep pushing and pushing
10:41
speaking from experience lol
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 10:42
I can believe ๐Ÿ˜…
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 10:42
but yea, absolutely, plus all the stress it causes the team and everyone involved... but no, silly online drama and wars are more important :/
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Darky
of course, we shouldn't allow all commercial games (I believe 177 for example was an official release) so we should have some kind of clause in our coc which basically says that if it doesn't line up with our values of protecting the community, we will remain our rights to remove a set
suspect15 2025-10-05 10:55
I really don't like the word "protecting"
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Nepiki
Quite frankly I'm not willing to throw any of these content creators who keep pushing for us to take action a bone, they do not decide how we moderate.
suspect15 2025-10-05 10:56
I've grown to really dislike these bluesky, armchair inquisitors and hope we create some significant distance from them.
10:58
There is a common sense solution to all this - the middle ground. Just because something exists doesn't mean it has to have an achievement set on RA. On the same token, RA isn't going to be built into a small group of very vocal and very toxic people's purity utopia
10:58
If something is clearly hateful/inciteful, especially if it's an unofficial release - we don't need it on RA. (edited)
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suspect15
There is a common sense solution to all this - the middle ground. Just because something exists doesn't mean it has to have an achievement set on RA. On the same token, RA isn't going to be built into a small group of very vocal and very toxic people's purity utopia
SternXD 2025-10-05 10:59
The vocal minority dusted_fade_away
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 10:59
Interesting stats: our Bsky has not lost any followers, and most people who have interacted with our account or me have been quite respectful. The people there who are the issue do not follow RA and lock their threads so nobody except their followers can reply. TieTuesday and XKeeper are prime examples.
11:00
Punchy as well.
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suspect15 2025-10-05 11:00
Yea, Punchy is the worst I've seen I think
11:00
I hope he gets banned
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:00
the majority of complaints i see are mainly people wanting a definitive solution to a problem that doesnt have one
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 11:01
are any of these folks well-known in the RA community?
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suspect15 2025-10-05 11:01
No
11:01
I've never heard of any of them before this weekend
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 11:01
heh. so they just latched on to the drama then
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suspect15 2025-10-05 11:02
Yea, we should boot them all
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 11:02
SuccintAndPunchy was someome active but was always anti-moderation
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Stenzek
heh. so they just latched on to the drama then
SternXD 2025-10-05 11:02
Sounds like someone wanting attention imho
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 11:02
TieTuesday has barely had any experience on RA and spread a lie he got muted because he was a first-time poster and not verified yet, which is a manual process that happens to everyone.
11:02
XKeeper has not played a single game.
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Nepiki
XKeeper has not played a single game.
SternXD 2025-10-05 11:03
Speaking of I actually started playing games on RA lmao
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 11:03
yea.. it's just the same sort of pattern with the drama I had last year.. people you've never heard of talking like they're involved
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 11:03
Good, you should enjoy what we have to offer outsids of work Wahoo
CatLoveHappy 1
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suspect15 2025-10-05 11:05
@Nepiki please be aware of YoniArousement (someone we rejected from the jr-dev program for having a pro-pedophile internet personality)
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11:05
Spreading lies to incite more problems
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suspect15
@Nepiki please be aware of YoniArousement (someone we rejected from the jr-dev program for having a pro-pedophile internet personality)
SternXD 2025-10-05 11:06
WHAT
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 11:06
Oh we are very aware of Yoni, we were actually discussing it not long ago
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suspect15 2025-10-05 11:06
okay good
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 11:06
I.. don't get it. It doesn't take a genius to work out what might be controversial or not, and if it potentially is then... run it by higher-ups first?
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11:07
that way you don't waste your time lol
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:08
i mean if the game can be on store shelfs and get an esrb under AO why wouldnt it be allowed lol (edited)
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Stenzek
that way you don't waste your time lol
SternXD 2025-10-05 11:08
Yeahโ€ฆ I could bring up many examples that have saved my dev time by literally just asking beforehand lol (edited)
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:18
i dont know how official clover was on RA other then it being requested and having a thread but if it had like a game page i kinda would've assumed it would be allowed so i could see someone being mad about their work going down the drain
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Nepiki
Bsky users have been complaining a lot that we are "not doing moderation", but speaking for myself, I have been glued to my chair for two days now and went to bed at 3 AM twice in a row. What we do is not visible, especially not mutes, and we have a shitton to go through but apparently we do nothing (edited)
Darky 2025-10-05 11:18
Yeah, it is quite obvious that they want to see public actions being taken, mutes and bans are not to their interest and they probably haven't noticed them anyways. Similar to other actions like removing the 300+ set interests and removing as much data as quickly as possible about clover
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 11:18
given how blatently racist it is, it's kinda mind-boggling to me think that it wouldn't be controversial
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:20
yeah i dont think people would be too keen on something like clover being in any community other than the community it was made for
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suspect15
I really don't like the word "protecting"
Darky 2025-10-05 11:21
It's definitely not the perfect word I chose but I think it still gets the point across. No matter if it's Pokemon Clover/Noon or 177 we should put our community first in these cases, bite the bullet and remove them from site. Our community is the most important aspect we have and if we pull another stunt like this, or allow games like these in the future we will lose the trust of our community and partners, until RA is slowly declining again
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:22
i think its time to farm the drama gotta make number go up
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 11:25
Can't wait for drama content creators to make content without reaching out to us for our side of the story
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suspect15 2025-10-05 11:25
Protecting implies a responsibility, it would be a mistake to say that we have that responsibility. I think a better approach is that RA is going to avoid platforming content that is intended to be inciteful. Unofficial releases deserve more scrutiny because the cost to produce them is virtually zero thus they are much more likely to have been used as malicious vehicles. There are a few official releases that still cross an unacceptable line and shouldn't be on the site (like 177 and I think Custer's Revenge), but we can't be protectors of people (edited)
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Nepiki
Can't wait for drama content creators to make content without reaching out to us for our side of the story
Stenzek 2025-10-05 11:27
if it's anything like the youtube clowns who made videos about me, they never will. the truth doesn't matter, only what gets them the most views
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suspect15 2025-10-05 11:27
Anyone can say 'oh GTA offends me, RA isn't protecting my marginalized group' - it's fodder we don't want to give them
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:28
i kinda interpreted the protect as to not create a space for people that align with the content of controversial games
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Stenzek
if it's anything like the youtube clowns who made videos about me, they never will. the truth doesn't matter, only what gets them the most views
SternXD 2025-10-05 11:28
God yes. Canโ€™t tell you how much I got shit on for not wanting to support Mali Android devices. (edited)
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Factor
i kinda interpreted the protect as to not create a space for people that align with the content of controversial games
suspect15 2025-10-05 11:29
Yea, I just wouldn't leave room for the interpretation is all - being very precise with the language is important because whatever statement is made can and will be used against RA (edited)
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:29
fair
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SternXD
God yes. Canโ€™t tell you how much I got shit on for not wanting to support Mali Android devices. (edited)
Factor 2025-10-05 11:30
they are a pain lol. i remember helping test mali support on the sonic mania decomp and the shaders not working correctly
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 11:31
eh? mali is mostly fine. granted I was only doing PS1/PS2... powervr on the other hand, that is a dumpster fire
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suspect15
Protecting implies a responsibility, it would be a mistake to say that we have that responsibility. I think a better approach is that RA is going to avoid platforming content that is intended to be inciteful. Unofficial releases deserve more scrutiny because the cost to produce them is virtually zero thus they are much more likely to have been used as malicious vehicles. There are a few official releases that still cross an unacceptable line and shouldn't be on the site (like 177 and I think Custer's Revenge), but we can't be protectors of people (edited)
Darky 2025-10-05 11:31
Well, we already have a responsibility in some form, we have to ensure that each achievemnet set and each user follows their own set of rules, which includes stuff like harassment, defamation, hate speech, bigotry, etc. for our user side. At least on site and our discord we have to trust our moderators that they act upon these rules, and protect those who are being victim to such behaviors (edited)
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Stenzek
eh? mali is mostly fine. granted I was only doing PS1/PS2... powervr on the other hand, that is a dumpster fire
Factor 2025-10-05 11:33
it was some weird niche thing to do with opengl on mali vs snapdragon. idr completely as i wasnt on the dev team
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Darky
Well, we already have a responsibility in some form, we have to ensure that each achievemnet set and each user follows their own set of rules, which includes stuff like harassment, defamation, hate speech, bigotry, etc. for our user side. At least on site and our discord we have to trust our moderators that they act upon these rules, and protect those who are being victim to such behaviors (edited)
suspect15 2025-10-05 11:35
Yes, most definitely, but we have the Code of Conduct to cover that. I'm definitely not advocating a moderationless site - I'm just concerned that we don't over-correct too much
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suspect15
Anyone can say 'oh GTA offends me, RA isn't protecting my marginalized group' - it's fodder we don't want to give them
Darky 2025-10-05 11:35
This is blowing up the case imo and setting unrealistic views, I believe no one has a real problem with GTA since it is a commercial game, it has to follow a set of rules to be allowed to be sold. Like I said, we should at least hold non-commercial games to higher rules since those have more freedom when compared to commercial games.
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:36
i think what suspect15 is getting at is protection in terms of content in games
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 11:36
You'd be surprised, GTA and GoW has been a few times brought up as "are these next?"
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:37
im not surprised
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 11:37
imo intent is what matters - were those games intended to hurt people and created from basically a hate group? no
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11:37
anything coming out of 4chan? kinda
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:38
i mean its mainly an question of do you want to create a space for fans of these games
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 11:38
paraphrasing what linus has said, anyone can get offended by anything, but if you're choosing to get offended by it and there wasn't any intent to harm to begin with, that's on you
11:38
ofc some folks would want to cancel me for that, but I strongly believe it
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:39
offense is up to interpretation
11:40
just because a majority think something is offensive or meant to harm doesnt mean its true
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suspect15 2025-10-05 11:41
as Stenzek said, intent is big
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:42
for something like clover the intention is definitely to offend and shock as many people as possible
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suspect15
Yes, most definitely, but we have the Code of Conduct to cover that. I'm definitely not advocating a moderationless site - I'm just concerned that we don't over-correct too much
Darky 2025-10-05 11:42
I think that's a fair view to have, but I really don't think this will be the case I'd say that I can trust our team that we will be able to filter out the problematic ones from the rest, worst case scenario we can always hold a discussion about it. If we would truly overreact we would probably lose most of our games, even commercial ones and I don't think that's what anyone wants
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suspect15 2025-10-05 11:42
that's fair
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Factor
for something like clover the intention is definitely to offend and shock as many people as possible
Stenzek 2025-10-05 11:43
agreed, and mock etc.. from the tiny bit I've seen. fairly clear cut case
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:45
i feel in most cases someone reasonable with knowledge of a game may step up if they find a ruling unjust (especially if a game is popular enough). now how reasonable that person may be who know
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 11:45
and like... what would the achievement names/icons be? if the premise of the game is toxic, then that's going to translate across in the set too?
11:45
(which would violate the CoC)
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:45
depends
11:46
you could probably get away with not violating the coc as it is most just a pkmn game
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suspect15 2025-10-05 11:46
yea, for clover for example, it still followed a pokemonesque game loop from what i understand, just had a lot of inflammatory characters/dialogue
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 11:46
177 had very unwelcome titles and descriptions; it it wasn't getting demoted, the Writing Team would have been asked to rewrite it
11:46
But it being gone is a net win so no losses there
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:47
clover has enough content in it that finding achievements that dont violate coc is pretty reasonable (edited)
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Stenzek 2025-10-05 11:47
ugh, I see
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 11:48
I definitely trust Tomo more than enough that if Clover did make it to RA and wasn't banned, he would have kept everything from text to art following the CoC
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Factor 2025-10-05 11:48
although you would have to make some cuts to elements of the game that would probably be deserving of an achievement
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AuburnRDM 2025-10-05 11:55
That type of content comes up through normal play, so there's really not a way around that
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Fridge 2025-10-05 12:30
Romhacking has its own policy for hacks and translations and such, because their service provider prevents it from them hosting it. But they have a "No Commotional Hacks policy which is made by staff. https://www.romhacking.net/policy/ Romhacks are the issue, retail sets won't match this level of content (edited)
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AuburnRDM 2025-10-05 12:32
There are very few retail games that i can think of that could be removed for content. Happy to see 177 gone and wouldn't mind custers following
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Fridge
Romhacking has its own policy for hacks and translations and such, because their service provider prevents it from them hosting it. But they have a "No Commotional Hacks policy which is made by staff. https://www.romhacking.net/policy/ Romhacks are the issue, retail sets won't match this level of content (edited)
AuburnRDM 2025-10-05 12:33
I'd say we'd want to count unlicensed here too, right? Something like hong kong 97
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Fridge 2025-10-05 12:34
Custer's is a weird one. I get it existing, AVGN made it way more famous than it ever needed to be.
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AuburnRDM 2025-10-05 12:34
Yeah, it being featured there is for sure something
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Searo 2025-10-05 13:53
I'm perfectly fine with Custer's being removed (as the dev of the set). I've actually brought it up before about taking it down but it's a bit more of a decision than just my own especially at this point.
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LordBBH
the most fucked up part of the initial thread was people being reprimanded for posting screenshots of Pokemon Clover that "break the site's TOS"
LordAndrew 2025-10-05 14:14
Yes, in retrospect, I fucked up and should have left that alone. They clearly didn't mean harm by it. The screenshot's already out there as a demonstration of the mod team's hypocrisy, so I'm really not sure what I can do about that now.
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suspect15 2025-10-05 14:26
You guys did the best you could at the time and were trying to do the right thing.
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 14:29
I wouldn't beat yourself down over it Andrew, it was a situation none of us were prepared for and we did what we could prayo
14:30
It's not new for our moderation team to be spotlighted as not doing our job, this will blow over quickly enough until they find a new thing that we supposedly do wrong
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suspect15 2025-10-05 15:06
Your pay will be reduced by 50% for a little while, then back to normal levels - no worries
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LordAndrew 2025-10-05 15:08
Sorry kids, no Christmas this year.
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AuburnRDM 2025-10-05 15:51
can't cut my pay if i'm not getting paid thinklight
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Falcus 2025-10-05 16:51
16:51
Me after I've been busy and not looked at RA for a few days SmokinStu
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 16:52
Hi!
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LordAndrew
Yes, in retrospect, I fucked up and should have left that alone. They clearly didn't mean harm by it. The screenshot's already out there as a demonstration of the mod team's hypocrisy, so I'm really not sure what I can do about that now.
Scott 2025-10-05 21:40
not at all - you were following the rules that were all agreed upon - you did nothing wrong
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Falcus
Click to see attachment ๐Ÿ–ผ๏ธ
CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-05 21:51
is it pineapple pizza
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suspect15 2025-10-05 21:59
peak weekly numbers are basically unchanged
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21:59
this is right around the time of the week that we usually see ~5k users
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Sutarion 2025-10-05 22:30
Just want to say that I appreciate the willingness of the admin team to re-evaluate decisions after an initial decision is voted on and made. There have been a couple of instances of that recently, and I see it as a strength of the team and the community as a whole that we can recognize a mistake and not double down on it out of stubbornness. These are tough decisions to make, but I think the community will come out stronger for it
ZeldaHeart 1
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LillyJade 2025-10-05 23:09
Been thinking and would it be a bad idea to say that at least one emulator nearly removed RA over this, without saying which? Because I feel like that should hopefully shut up some of the people still whining about it.
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drisc 2025-10-05 23:10
I feel like that would just give people ideas about lobbying emu devs to remove RA support
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Nepiki 2025-10-05 23:11
I don't think it would be a good idea; people will get the idea that we are being controlled by emulator devs and do not have free reign, and will (potentially) attack emulator devs and/or bully them into dropping RA support
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23:11
It's best to keep our partners out of this, both for our but also most definitely for their sake (edited)
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Nepiki
I don't think it would be a good idea; people will get the idea that we are being controlled by emulator devs and do not have free reign, and will (potentially) attack emulator devs and/or bully them into dropping RA support
SternXD 2025-10-05 23:16
^
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LillyJade
Been thinking and would it be a bad idea to say that at least one emulator nearly removed RA over this, without saying which? Because I feel like that should hopefully shut up some of the people still whining about it.
suspect15 2025-10-05 23:22
I don't think so either, to me that exposes an attack vector
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LillyJade 2025-10-05 23:25
ugh, you're right. God, I wish people had some element of reason and sanity to them.
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CookiePLMonster 2025-10-05 23:34
Personally I'd 100% read a public message like this as an attempt to guilt trip, so imo a strong nope
๐Ÿ‘† 1
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LillyJade 2025-10-05 23:37
I want them to feel guilty for nearly destroying my work though yeah I get it, I'm sorry. I'm still not completely calmed down from all this tbh but I'm keeping my mouth shut.
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Trixarian 2025-10-05 23:38
Some people can't be reasoned with and tend to just jump on the bandwagon. I'm a romhacker too, but I can understand why that game won't get support due to the changes made - even if it's just an Undub - since it isn't what the original developers intended (edited)
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Souzooka 2025-10-05 23:41
I'd agree that outside partner pressure shouldn't be mentioned
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LillyJade 2025-10-05 23:41
yeah, that's on me - I wasn't planning on saying this to apologize, tbh. I wanted to impress that there's a hell of a lot more at stake than a single game here.
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Souzooka 2025-10-05 23:41
I'm still waiting for the policy announcement imo
23:42
RA fumbled pretty bad and I initially got a message back from a member that it was just cancel culture, which I thought was rather dismissive of the concerns
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Nepiki
I don't think it would be a good idea; people will get the idea that we are being controlled by emulator devs and do not have free reign, and will (potentially) attack emulator devs and/or bully them into dropping RA support
CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-05 23:46
insert retroarch drama into this:
23:47
in theory retroarch would have a ton of leverage here, which some conspiratorial minds can use that fact to make some bullshit conspiracy that this is retroarch's bidding or something
23:48
(granted that also wouldn't make sense itself since you'd think it'd go the other way around if you try to attach retroarch drama but that assumes people are logical)
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Souzooka 2025-10-05 23:50
I think you're being rather negative on this; there are some people you'll never please with unrealistic demands of course, and being willing to reconsider is commendable. However, that RA fumbled badly initially and the response I initially got back after that was still concerning.
23:50
I think that can be recognized as part of the whole
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Souzooka
I'm still waiting for the policy announcement imo
AuburnRDM 2025-10-05 23:59
soon tm
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suspect15 2025-10-06 00:06
@Souzooka probably time for me to do some RAM digging or something ๐Ÿ˜…
00:07
Appreciate your understanding
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Souzooka 2025-10-06 00:07
Yeah, I think my point here is that those who are like "I'm angry and as such this should crash and burn" have an unrealistic view on the issue. However, that doesn't mean there aren't those with more practical concerns (which you touched on).
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suspect15 2025-10-06 00:10
Yea, as I reread my thoughts, they didn't really capture what I was trying to say well.
00:11
I understand that some people may be upset and that's valid and I don't blame people for feeling however they may. It's when people lash out and try to be destructive that I think is very problematic all things considered.
00:12
Or equally those who are trying to instigate further issues
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Souzooka 2025-10-06 01:08
I think what a lot of people who still have concerns have concerns because they think the apology is too tepid (and might even imply Pokemon Clover, or some edit of it, may return in the future). I think a policy post could be a place to say something decisive, and also potentially an opportunity to talk about how some instigators have faced punishments.
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suspect15 2025-10-06 01:51
I agree, that would be a good way to settle this and move on
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Jamiras 2025-10-06 14:50
Someone in the RetroArch server was complaining about the wording on this error message:
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14:51
In particular, the "Please log in again.". In RetroArch, that means re-entering your password. Does this seem good? Or can someone think of something better?
RetroAchievements login token expired. Please re-enter your password and try again.
14:51
In particular, is the "try again" clear enough, or should it be "reload the game" or something more extreme like "restart RetroArch"?
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Stenzek 2025-10-06 14:55
fwiw I pause the system and throw up the login dialog again, that way they don't need to restart to re-enable HC
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Nepiki 2025-10-06 14:57
I'd say RetroAchievements login expired. Please re-enter your password and reload the game. would work; I've omitted token because the regular user will probably not really understand that and just look at ''login expired'', but no strong feelings
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Stenzek 2025-10-06 14:58
<strong>Your RetroAchievements login token is no longer valid.</strong> You must re-enter your credentials for achievements to be tracked.
is what I'm using in the popup (edited)
14:58
haven't heard any complaints, so it's either fine or tokens get invalidated so infrequently it's a non-issue ๐Ÿ˜‚
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drisc 2025-10-06 15:05
I just had to relog on duckstation yesterday but I hadnโ€™t played a ps1 game for quite a while
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Stenzek 2025-10-06 15:08
if it had been a really long time and before I added machine key-based encryption of the tokens, then that could be why. I've found the tokens themselves usually last ages, more than several months
15:08
but yeah, point is it should be relatively friction-less. didn't want to have someone pissed off because they lost a bunch of progress due to missing a message ๐Ÿ˜‰ (edited)
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Jamiras 2025-10-06 15:27
The token lasts two weeks, but is renewed any time it's used, so can last indefinitely.
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Stenzek 2025-10-06 15:29
is that a recent-ish change? I swear I've gone longer than 2 weeks in the past, but I could be misremembering
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Jamiras 2025-10-06 15:30
nope. it's been that way as long as I can remember.
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Stenzek 2025-10-06 15:31
oh well ๐Ÿ™‚
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CookiePLMonster 2025-10-06 15:36
damn it never felt this way, I can also swear I had breaks longer than 2 weeks without invalidating
15:36
but... just opening the emulator is enough to revalidate the token I guess
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LillyJade 2025-10-06 15:36
See my issue with this wording is that RetroArch's internal config dialog for RetroAchievements is not implemented well in the first place
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CookiePLMonster
but... just opening the emulator is enough to revalidate the token I guess
Stenzek 2025-10-06 15:37
unless you have achievements off, which I normally do due to my iteration rates, I try not to spam RA servers ๐Ÿ˜‚
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LillyJade 2025-10-06 15:37
there's no login button, you just enter a password and hope it gets picked up, and since usually you have to restart the emulation for it to take place it usually doesn't validate right then
15:38
the only way I've been able to halfway consistently get RetroArch to log in is by digging up the config file in a text editor and setting my password there before starting RetroArch up.
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Stenzek 2025-10-06 15:38
yep. and users don't read OSD messages, or in some cases they even disable them entirely
15:39
I've tried, and even putting large text with a warning exclamation icon gets ignored.. I've just given up
15:40
hence why I just pause the whole thing and shove it in their face :p force them to deal with it
15:40
iirc RAIntegration does similar? but it's been ages since I used it
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Jamiras 2025-10-06 15:47
The initial login is a forced popup. On automatic login failure, it pops an error dialog, but then returns to the game with the menu in the same state as if the user chose to logout. It would probably make sense to just pop the login dialog again on expired token.
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LillyJade
the only way I've been able to halfway consistently get RetroArch to log in is by digging up the config file in a text editor and setting my password there before starting RetroArch up.
drisc 2025-10-06 17:09
This has been a sticking point for me on retro handhelds as well. Since my password is pretty long and complex it takes forever to input via a controller based keyboard. Then finding out it didnโ€™t work and the whole thing is gone makes it frustrating to set up.
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CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-06 18:54
do these handhelds not have a touch screen? (edited)
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CasualPokePlayer
do these handhelds not have a touch screen? (edited)
SternXD 2025-10-06 19:13
I know my odin 2 does but not sure about that one
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CasualPokePlayer
do these handhelds not have a touch screen? (edited)
drisc 2025-10-06 19:22
A lot of the cheaper ones that run a custom Linux image donโ€™t have touch at all. I use an Anbernic RG35XX-H as my portable retro console tethered to my phones data for RA
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CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-06 19:23
what the fuck? is literally everything expected to be done with a controller?
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drisc 2025-10-06 19:23
Though that might change when Delta gets proper support for Gameboy and DS
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CasualPokePlayer
what the fuck? is literally everything expected to be done with a controller?
drisc 2025-10-06 19:24
I mean you can connect a keyboard via otg but I donโ€™t have one handy all the time
19:24
The interface is designed to be controller first though
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CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-06 19:24
yeah that seems very annoying
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drisc 2025-10-06 19:27
I like the handheld because itโ€™s very small and when itโ€™s connected to the Internet, it will sync my saved data so I donโ€™t have to think about it using syncthing
19:27
If I wanted touch, I could probably just set things up on my steam deck but that is way bigger
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suspect15 2025-10-06 23:29
This isn't a support emulator is it? Afterplay 1.0.13
23:29
I just got a ticket on an achievement with thousands of previous unlocks from a player using this emulator, but I'm not familiar with it at all
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wes 2025-10-06 23:30
It is indeed a supported emulator
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suspect15 2025-10-06 23:30
hmm...
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drisc 2025-10-06 23:31
That's the one with the web client
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suspect15 2025-10-06 23:31
I'm going to ask the ticket reporter to try again with a different emulator. I highly doubt there is a problem with the logic since it's been unlocked over 4,000 times without incident
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CasualPokePlayer 2025-10-06 23:31
time to make RAIntegration in wasm
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wes
It is indeed a supported emulator
Falcus 2025-10-07 00:13
Looking at it now I see it's core based (had originally set it up when the announcement first happend to check it out) Do we know if it's using the libretro cores and if so shouldn't we have a set of compatible cores like how retroarch is? I see SNES has snes9x, BSNES, supafaust (this is the default) and mesen-s are available within afterplay
00:14
For reference, if it is the libretro cores and they are using supafaust, the libretro core is listed as unsupported due to not exposing memory (edited)
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wes 2025-10-07 00:16
it is indeed using libretro cores
00:16
https://afterplay.io/licenses
00:16
cc @Patrick Afterplay
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Falcus 2025-10-07 00:17
I'm clearly blind, I was trying to find that page to verify ๐Ÿ˜…
00:18
@suspect15 they're probably using supafaust. I just booted the game up in afterplay and that was my default core at least
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suspect15 2025-10-07 00:19
I tried to unlock it twice myself and it didn't work. I'll try again with a different core
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Falcus 2025-10-07 00:19
Saves and settings at top left then there's a tab for cores that lets you switch
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suspect15 2025-10-07 00:19
okay thanks - I've never seen it before, but really, really like it
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Falcus 2025-10-07 00:20
I love the interface, been meaning to give it a proper demo
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Falcus
@suspect15 they're probably using supafaust. I just booted the game up in afterplay and that was my default core at least
suspect15 2025-10-07 00:23
This is exactly the problem
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00:23
just worked for me when i retried with Mesen-S
00:25
Maybe when players log into RA, the default core can be switched to a compatible core
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Falcus 2025-10-07 00:25
Epilogue Playback is the same. Default there is mgba but it has a bunch of libretro cores available
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suspect15 2025-10-07 00:25
I think we'll run into this type of issue a lot if unsupported cores are the default and players are expecting to unlock achievements (edited)
00:29
@Patrick Afterplay would it be reasonable for Afterplay to default to RA supported cores for players after they log into their RA accounts or something similar to avoid having unsupported cores as the default selection?
00:29
I think this is going to be a recurring issue for players new to the emulator looking to use it with RA
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Falcus 2025-10-07 00:29
This is definitely one of my favourite parts of Epilogue Playback. gpsp "allows" achievements in retroarch but isn't supported, so it just gets marked as no achievement support here
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00:29
Just as one example
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suspect15 2025-10-07 00:31
I'm probably a pretty good benchmark for the average, uninformed user. I stooged right into it, trying to troubleshoot a problem that I didn't think was an achievement logic issue and didn't realize/think to even make sure the default core was compatible with RA (edited)
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Falcus 2025-10-07 00:36
I went to take a quick look at the cheat menu since I saw softcore user. I assumed they probably enabled a cheat that instantly made them a higher level ๐Ÿ˜‚
00:36
Then thought to look in the core screen
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suspect15 2025-10-07 10:58
@Promotion Not sure if you want to nip this in the bud since it's an irrelevant discussion without a formal policy having been issued and is probably just going to lead to more problems: https://retroachievements.org/forums/topic/32705?comment=322279#322279
Content Policy Consistency and Community Standards
Hi RetroAchievements community and moderation team, I wanted to open a respectful dialogue about the recent content removals and how we might ensure consistent application of community standards going forward. I understa...
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Nepiki 2025-10-07 10:59
I'll probably close it with a thank you for the respectful approach
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suspect15 2025-10-07 11:03
at least something worth keeping a close eye on
11:03
it's been quite respectful and level headed so far, but it go could off the rails soon
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Nepiki 2025-10-07 11:08
Yeah I'll leave it open for a bit actually, if it goes off the rails then we'll see
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wes
https://afterplay.io/licenses
Stenzek 2025-10-07 11:11
I do find it kinda funny that apparently I'm the devil incarnate for switching away from GPL on code I wrote/own, but you have cases like this where there's blatent GPL and non-commercial license violations, yet somehow that's okay
ssweat 1
11:13
and for R2, I'm specifically avoiding any GPL code/cores for this reason
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Nepiki 2025-10-07 11:15
The community can be nice ๐Ÿ˜Œ
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pray 1
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Patrick Afterplay 2025-10-07 11:16
Thanks for the @ @wes ๐Ÿ™‚ Glad you like it @suspect15 and @Falcus โค๏ธ
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Falcus
This is definitely one of my favourite parts of Epilogue Playback. gpsp "allows" achievements in retroarch but isn't supported, so it just gets marked as no achievement support here
Patrick Afterplay 2025-10-07 11:16
This is a great idea! We will implement something like this
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suspect15
@Patrick Afterplay would it be reasonable for Afterplay to default to RA supported cores for players after they log into their RA accounts or something similar to avoid having unsupported cores as the default selection?
Patrick Afterplay 2025-10-07 11:20
Yes this is also a great idea! @wes suggested we just have mesen as the default which we wanted to do but after some testing we saw that performance is worse than supafaust for wasm build so we were reluctant to do that as most of our users are mobile. This is a great idea. When people activate achievements we could pop up a modal and confirm they want to switch or something like that? Currently up to my eyes with adding bulk import and some other long requested features but will be doing another pass on retroachievements after that. In the next couple of weeks so will add then. Very happy to be part of the retro achievements community
pray 2
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 11:24
no answer for the license issue? it's kinda relevant to me because for some systems my core selection is very limited, and I probably should disable achievements entirely for the systems where there's no "supported" core that is license compatible.. but if there's precedent that everyone can just yolo violate core's licenses, then that kinda solves my problem
11:31
(also, lol, claiming you use duckstation but I definitely don't allow derivatives nor commercial use ๐Ÿ˜‚)
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Stenzek
no answer for the license issue? it's kinda relevant to me because for some systems my core selection is very limited, and I probably should disable achievements entirely for the systems where there's no "supported" core that is license compatible.. but if there's precedent that everyone can just yolo violate core's licenses, then that kinda solves my problem
SternXD 2025-10-07 11:33
Yeah, I have seen so many blatant license violations lately and Iโ€™m like I donโ€™t even know what to think atp anymore
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Nepiki 2025-10-07 11:46
I believe the license violations have been addressed when we went through the entire hardcore verified drama a bit ago, but Wes could answer that better than me; I'm not knowledgably on licenses at all ๐Ÿ˜…
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 11:54
you can't combine GPL with non-free (e.g. propreitary, non-commerical) code period, merely providing a link to source code is not sufficient. doesn't matter whether it's dynamically or statically linked
11:55
that linked page has a bunch of GPL2/3 cores, and thus they cannot be shipped with/combined with a proprietary application. even if the application was GPL (or something less restrict), you can't mix GPL and anything restrictive (e.g. non-commerical) together
11:56
that's part of why the GPL is so friggin awful, but after being on the receiving end of the harassment from licensebros, I made sure to ensure I wasn't doing anything wrong, which this clearly is
11:57
the only one that can actually enforce said license and make demands is the copyright holder. users cannot. but as copyright holder for duckstation, it's definitely something I take an issue with. even if it was based on old DS code pre-license-change, that was dual CC+GPL, and the GPL is incompatible with afterplay AFAICT (edited)
11:59
but really, when it comes down to it I just find the double standards infuritating, especially when "doing the right thing" means my users (if I end up with any) get a worse experience, yet others get away with it
11:59
and yes, wes did mention it to me a couple months back, seems nothing has changed.
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wes 2025-10-07 13:20
I thought Afterplay didnโ€™t use DuckStation. Is it shipping DuckStation?
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wes
I thought Afterplay didnโ€™t use DuckStation. Is it shipping DuckStation?
Falcus 2025-10-07 13:22
Just rearmed, at least with my install
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wes
I thought Afterplay didnโ€™t use DuckStation. Is it shipping DuckStation?
Stenzek 2025-10-07 13:23
duckstation is far from the only issue, which was my point. it's just the only one that I have a direct copyright claim for :p (edited)
13:23
and the documentation still lists it
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Nepiki 2025-10-07 13:25
I believe the ones we identified at the time were Picodrive and Snes9x, which should both be removed and replaced with Blast'em and Supafaust respectively
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 13:26
great, that solves the non-commercial issue, but what about GPL? is afterplay itself GPL?
13:26
I can't find any source links available anywhere, nor license info for the frontend
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Nepiki 2025-10-07 13:27
That I cannot answer myself, I have no knowledge of all this ๐Ÿ˜…
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 13:28
like, if all of a sudden it's fine to combine proprietary code with GPL code, then I'd be fine to ship dolphin with R2. But I won't, because I know I'll get my head bitten off if I do
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LillyJade 2025-10-07 13:28
I gotta admit that this licensing stuff has me nervous for when I finally get around to my own projects
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 13:28
(R2 will be closed source, mainly due to knockoffs and linux packagers, plus non-commercial, but of course free and unmonetized) (edited)
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LillyJade
I gotta admit that this licensing stuff has me nervous for when I finally get around to my own projects
Stenzek 2025-10-07 13:30
the whole thing is fricking stupid. but I had death threats over it, plus assholes like leah rowe doxed about a hundred people in her stupid quest for "everything must be free code"
13:30
so it's not exactly something you want to be seen as supporting, especially when there is an actual violation (edited)
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LillyJade 2025-10-07 13:34
One of my deepest fears is being somehow locked out of my own projects ๐Ÿ˜… god, that even almost happened with Dolphin+RA.
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 13:35
you won't be. contrary to what the licensebros think, licensing your work doesn't mean the copyright is transferred to others. you always own what you write. you just can't retroactively revoke a license/permission to use
13:36
(well, unless you sign a CLA, anyway lol)
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LillyJade 2025-10-07 13:36
Doesn't look like Wolf is in here ... when I was first setting up he offered to "fix" what he said was a poorly setup git repo, next thing I know he's bulk copied all my code to his own repo under his own name and is talking about restricting my access to it because I'm not responsible enough to set it up right
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 13:37
if he's stripped your name, then that's a copyright issue on top of a license issue. practically speaking tho, can't do much unless you can afford lawyers, it's just a dick move (edited)
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LillyJade 2025-10-07 13:38
Tbh I just ignored it and set my repo up the way Dolphin wanted it and didn't bother interact with him again. Though if you ask he'll still claim he taught me everything I know about setting up a git repo ๐Ÿ™„
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 13:39
good thing one's reputation is based on more than their ability to set up git ๐Ÿ˜‰
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LillyJade 2025-10-07 13:39
This is the first project I've done under this name, under a female name as a trans woman. The fact that it took less than a day after publicizing it for someone to attempt to mansplain to me that I didn't know what I was doing felt ... weirdly validating, even if shitty.
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 13:40
people are whack... somehow have nothing better to do I guess..
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Stenzek
I can't find any source links available anywhere, nor license info for the frontend
wes 2025-10-07 13:40
My understanding is Afterplay was working on open sourcing a large chunk of their code similar to Delta. But I canโ€™t speak for the author regarding the status of this.
13:40
Sorry that I do not have a better answer, Stenzek blobsad
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 13:41
it's not your responsibility! I'm just raising awareness of potential controversy, as well as a little frustration venting since I'm trying to do everything "correctly" :p (edited)
ZeldaHeart 1
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LillyJade
This is the first project I've done under this name, under a female name as a trans woman. The fact that it took less than a day after publicizing it for someone to attempt to mansplain to me that I didn't know what I was doing felt ... weirdly validating, even if shitty.
Stenzek 2025-10-07 13:46
just ignore the haters, make cool shit, have fun. but at the same time, as a security nut, don't trust anyone online either
13:46
even people you think you'll get along with forever will screw you at some point, sadly (well, in my experience, anyway)
13:47
not suggesting you shouldn't work with others, but imo it's wise to make sure you're never in a position where they can exert control over you
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LillyJade 2025-10-07 13:55
Yeah, honestly the scare I had over the Clover debacle really reminded me how much I need to work on my own projects
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 14:00
yea, that's fair.. but at the same time, it's not like working solo is any more "impressive" than working on existing projects
14:01
it's also more challenging to stay motivated, but having several things on the go can mitigate that too
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LillyJade 2025-10-07 14:08
Not so much because it's impressive. It's because my experience with Dolphin has left me rather unable to trust being able to work with anyone else.
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 14:11
totally get that. I don't trust anyone either ๐Ÿ˜‚ but can't let that ruin opportunities for you, I try to find some middle ground where you're not dependent, and if they do screw you, you have an exit. but assume they won't and hope for the best
14:12
I'd say generally speaking, your.. less than ideal contribution experience with dolphin is probably the exception rather than the norm
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Patrick Afterplay 2025-10-07 15:44
Hi @Stenzek, how are you? sorry I missed your message earlier I just saw the mentioned ones. I think we're in line with all our licensing now. We had a crazy few weeks trying to get that right. Those docs are really old. I must update them. They're not even linked in app anymore. I totally agree you with you on double standards. What do you feel afterplay would need to do to remedy it? We're all for being as legit as possible.
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 15:59
I explained it here https://discord.com/channels/476211979464343552/1002693810037477377/1425073678902886500
16:00
Basically, if you want to load or link with GPL code, your application has to be GPL compatible
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aglab2 2025-10-07 16:00
that does not seem right. dynamic linking should be allowed otherwise it would be impossible to have any Linux proprietary software
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 16:00
It is.
16:01
There's a "system library" exemption for things like C runtimes, and those are generally LGPL, not GPL
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Patrick Afterplay 2025-10-07 16:01
Ya it's a wasm interface so I think we'd just need to release our changes to RetroArch which we plan on doing anyway
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 16:02
LGPL permits dynamic loading of LGPL code with nonfree applications, or you can static link if you give the user the ability to relink it themselves
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Patrick Afterplay
Ya it's a wasm interface so I think we'd just need to release our changes to RetroArch which we plan on doing anyway
Stenzek 2025-10-07 16:02
That's not sufficient. The whole thing has to be GPL
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Patrick Afterplay 2025-10-07 16:03
Why, we're dynamically linking our non free code with the gpl code which is fine right?
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 16:03
No.
16:03
It would have to be LGPL for that, not GPL
16:04
You can get away with it potentially if it's loaded in a separate process and uses IPC, but that's also unclear and grey at best
16:06
GPL3 and GPL2 are also incompatible with one another. The GPL2 code has to specifically be labelled "GPL2 or later" to allow it to be mixed
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Patrick Afterplay 2025-10-07 16:06
Thanks for bringing it to my attention, we'll investigate and do all we can ๐Ÿ™‚ I appricate you
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Stenzek 2025-10-07 16:07
from a core perspective you'd have to do what I'm doing, that is not use any GPL cores
16:08
But if you're using retroarch code, then you're SIL and the whole thing must be GPL because retroarch is GPL
16:08
And I'm also a (very tiny) copyright holder there (it was many years ago before it turned toxic), so I'd arguably have a claim against you
16:13
Fwiw, I'm not a GPL/software freedom evangelist, they shit me off as much as the next guy, but I don't think it's right that I have to follow things to the letter, but others don't and it's even worse when they're paywalling/profiting (mobile stores are full of this trash, puts us all at legal risk)
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Patrick Afterplay 2025-10-07 16:14
I can totally understand that.
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